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DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Imagine you're in a stressful situation, say, at work, trying to do something really difficult, and a bunch of your friends and family are watching, screaming at the top of their lungs shouting advice while you're trying to do it. My guest, Mike Matheny, says that's exactly what parents do to their kids all the time in youth sports. Matheny's a former big-league catcher who spent 13 years in the majors, winning four Gold Glove Awards. He's now in his fifth season as manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, where he's led his team to the playoffs every year.

But Matheny's almost as well-known for a code of behavior he wrote after he retired as a player from the big leagues and agreed to coach his son's youth baseball team. The rules were for the parents, who, Matheny says, are the biggest problem in youth sports.

We asked Matheny to come in last year and talk about kids and parents in youth sports, his playing career, what it's like to manage in the big leagues and about his book, "The Matheny Manifesto: A Young Manager's Views On Success In Sports And Life." It's now out in paperback.

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DAVIES: Well, Mike Matheny, welcome to FRESH AIR. In 2008, you left the game, finally, after some concussions and were asked to coach a youth baseball team while your 10-year-old kid was going to be on it. And you write that you - before you did it, you really did some thinking about what kind of a program you wanted to write - run - and wrote this long letter to parents. And it begins with you saying that the biggest problem in youth sports is the parents. How do you want parents to behave at a game? What do you tell them?

MIKE MATHENY: At times, part of the problem is it defines you and who you are by how well your kids play in youth sports.

And so we just asked the parents to step away from that and really just be a silent source of encouragement. And we would give them some things to work on because it's very, very important what they're doing at home and just playing some catch and going out and having a good time. But mostly, during the game, do whatever you could just to take yourself out of the picture. The kids don't necessarily need you to be yelling words of encouragement at the top of your lungs.

And this is really coming from a number of studies where they go and they interview collegiate, high school and even lower-level athletes and asking them, what do you want your parents to do at the game? And the overwhelming answer is absolutely nothing. And it comes back to what's the goal? This is about the kid. This is not about the parents.

DAVIES: And when your parent is shouting the encouraging thing like, come on Johnny (ph), you can do it, you're saying that actually - they got enough pressure that they put on themselves.

MATHENY: Well, just think about, you know, you had a group of people that you care about most, and you're getting ready to go make a big presentation for work, and someone's yelling at the top of their lungs, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. And all of a sudden, it doesn't work out. You feel like you let everybody down. You know, these kids put so much pressure - and this stuff's tough. And whether it is learning an instrument or it's playing a sport, trying to get that right and do it perfectly to everybody's expectations is tough.

And I'll take the game of baseball - you know, hitting that round ball with a round bat and doing that consistently, you're going to fail 70 percent of the time. Even the best players do. And in the meanwhile, you're trying to please your teammates. You're trying to please your coach. And then you got the most important person in your world back there screaming at you, and you think, if I don't get this done, I disappoint them. And that's when you get to the point where these kids just check out. And they say, listen, I just can't get this thing right. I might as well go back to my room and play some video games where nobody bothers me.

DAVIES: One of the things you tell parents in the letter, and you did when you met with them, is we are not going to have good umpiring. Why do you tell them that?

MATHENY: (Laughter).

DAVIES: Seems kind of obvious in a way, doesn't it?

MATHENY: No. Well, most of these kids, especially at the lower levels, you know, the umpires sometimes are only a couple years older, and most of them had a crash course over a weekend where they spent two hours vaguely learning the rules and then expected to be able to do this in real-time without any experience at all. Most of the time, you're just looking for volunteers - somebody that can act like an umpire just to let the game go properly.

And without fail - and sometimes, it's deserved. There are some umpires that do get it wrong, but the majority of them are just trying to go out and do it the best they can. They just aren't real qualified. And I'll tell you right now, you know, we yell at our umpires all the time. And it's probably a bad example for us to make, but this is our livelihood. And we have...

DAVIES: We, meaning in the big leagues, you mean.

MATHENY: In the big leagues, correct. But in the big leagues, we understand that we have the best umpiring in the world, and they're still going to make mistakes 'cause they're human. And that's part of the game too, is the human element of it.

But we get to the point in the youth-league games where we just say it's not an option. And we do try to separate with what's going on professionally. Not to sound like hypocrites, but there is a difference, especially when we're trying to learn the game at the lower levels. But what we do know is that it's just not an option for our parents or for our coaches at the youth-league level.

And one way that we've enforced this and reinforced it, too, was to ask our parents, when they had free time, to go out and volunteer to be an umpire. And once you put those shoes on and you realize how hard that is, even for people who know the game well, they'll see it's not as easy as it looks. And I think it give you a little empathy to what some of these young umpires are going through.

DAVIES: Yeah. I've done it myself, and there's no way you get through a game without blowing a call that you know you blew.

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DAVIES: Now, among the things that parents tend to do, which can be counterproductive or troubling apart from yelling during the game is call the coach and say, you know, my kid really should be batting third. Why do you have him at the bottom of the order? Or, you know, that kid - my kid could play a better shortstop than that guy you've got out there. You had rules about that, too, didn't you?

MATHENY: Yeah, we did. And that was something that I know has driven many coaches and many very good and qualified and well-intended coaches away from being involved as a coach anymore. And so that was another item that just kind of pointed it out at the beginning. And it's just - if you trust me to coach your kids, then let me do that job. And you have to trust, first of all, that I have their best interest in mind, there's no ulterior motive, that I'm not trying to self-promote. I'm not trying to promote my own kid. I just want to see these kids all grow.

Now, if you sign up for that, then that really takes away the freedom that you have to start guessing and second-guessing the decisions that I'm making. Now, yes, you're going to guard your kids. Absolutely be careful and watch what's going on. But as far as things like playing time, either you trust me or you don't. And at that point, we kind of ended the discussion. And it went well for the most part but absolutely was tried a couple times.

DAVIES: I like your description of some of the things you did with the kids. I mean, particularly in the early part of the season, you say you want to get to the point where you're winning, but you're really teaching them. Talk about some of the things you did with positions and lineup in the early weeks of the season.

MATHENY: Yeah. And this really does apply to kids that are just learning the game. And I have that 10-year-old kind of idea in my mind because that's the age that we started. And I know kids are starting even younger than that. I started tee-ball when I was 7, and that was basically just five or six games of going out. And I hardly remember what we did. It was just being together with our friends.

But really, at that age of 10, we started, you know, playing where kids are pitching against each other.

And I think it's how you define success and what were your goals. And our success and goals revolved around whether these kids wanted to show up to the next practice, whether these kids wanted to show up to the next game and at the end of the season, whether they wanted to play the game again. And that's how we defined what our success would be. And in the meanwhile, we're going to teach them a passion for the game. And I think you can only do that by exposing them to every part of the game.

And so to do that, we put them all over the field. I let left-handers catch if they wanted to catch. I put a left-hander at shortstop. I put a kid that had trouble ever throwing the ball anywhere near the plate - I threw him on the mound and - just to see if they had fun with it and then to challenge them and then give them some work. And that's where parents really came in. And we would give the parents and the young man some homework.

They needed to go home, and they needed to play catch. And they needed to throw so many pitches. And the parent needed to flip some Wiffle balls to the boy and try and get in so many swings and then see what kind of commitment level they had and match that together with their talents and then to see, you know, how far they could take it 'cause we're not shy about trying to get these kids to play as far as they can, but that's not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal was to invest into them as people.

DAVIES: Mike Matheny is the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and a former big-league catcher. His book about his principles for managing youth baseball is called "The Matheny Manifesto." We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

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DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, our guest is Mike Matheny. He's the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals and a former big league catcher. He's written a book, in part, about his experiences managing youth baseball and the way he tries to deal with kids and parents. It's called "The Matheny Manifesto."

It was 2012, I guess, that you were picked to manage the St. Louis Cardinals - then the defending World Series champion, right?

MATHENY: Correct, it was right after the 2011 season.

DAVIES: OK, all right - taking the place of a legendary figure in baseball, Tony La Russa. You had had no professional managing experience. You bring an approach to managing that you call servant leadership. When I think of a big-league manager, I don't think of a servant. I think of a guy with his arms folded and this steely look in his eyes as he surveys his team in the field, being firm, decisive, sometimes loud, maybe even abusive. How does this work in baseball?

MATHENY: Well, I try to stay away from the abusive part, but the rest of it's true. I mean - but that's only a small portion of my job description. Yeah, there is a stoic nature of a presence that needs to happen for a manager, but the real impact that I'm able to have and anybody on our club and especially our staff is able to have is the in-between time. And that's in the clubhouse. That's when we're traveling on the road. That's when we're in our practices. It's our workouts before the game, and those are the opportunities for guys to find out whether this is about me or whether it's about them. And for me, to see the greatest impacts that people have had on my life is when they've invested into me. And if I know they care, they're going to get something extra out of me.

And that - yeah, that kind of sounds fuzzy, you know, and kind of warm, and it's not anything except getting outside of yourself and your own intentions and your own ambitions and trying to make it about somebody else.

DAVIES: Now, you've spent - what? - 13 years as a catcher in the big leagues. Do I have that right?

MATHENY: That's right.

DAVIES: OK, now that means that - one of the big decisions a manager has to make is when to pull a pitcher. And so hundreds of times when you were a catcher, you would go out to the mound and hear these conversations - one of the - when the manager comes out, talks to the pitcher and asks him to give up the ball so he can bring in - somebody in from the bullpen. I wonder, over the years as you saw those conversations, were there - did you think, you know what? This is how I would do it. Did you see people - managers - making mistakes in communication that you felt like you wouldn't make or you'd want to do differently?

MATHENY: You know, Dave, the majority of the time those decisions are made before that manager ever gets out there. And there are other times it can be a reconnaissance mission where you go out and you can see just how badly this guy wants to stay in the game. You can look in their eye a little bit and see if they've got it or not or if they're looking for a life preserver. And I think each manager I had, I always enjoyed getting out there before he got there just so I could see the whole thing go into play and see - is he really testing this pitcher right now, or has he already made up his mind? Is he just stalling? And I think that's why a lot of times you see catchers transition into this manager position a little more seamlessly because there's so many different things that go into the thought process of a catcher besides just my space right now, my responsibility. A catcher has to have of his hands kind of on a lot of different things.

DAVIES: Oh, yeah. I recognize that. Even if the manager has made the decision when he gets to the mound, and it's often made because the manager usually doesn't come out to the mound unless there's a decision made to change pitchers, how you communicate with the pitcher probably matters, doesn't it?

MATHENY: Yeah, I think so. And, you know, some people take a lot of pride in how they do communicate. And, you know, there was another era, too, that was just old school and rough and gruff. And the only communication was a couple grunts, and there were some heated conversations out there, too, just two guys flat yelling at each other right there on national TV. And those were always entertaining, but, you know, I did know that, you know, there was normally negative repercussions that came down the line once that interaction did happen.

But for the most part, there was never a whole lot - usually your veteran ace, your guy that's been around a long time, he'd have a little more say. The rest of the guys, they're really kind of at the mercy of whatever the pitching coach or the manager thought at the time and whatever communication was typically pretty short.

DAVIES: All right, let's just play - role-play a little bit. I'm on the mound. You're coming out to get me, two guys on. I can get this guy out, coach. I know I can get him out, Mike. What do you tell me?

MATHENY: If I had already had my mind made up, I'd tell you, yeah, I know you could, but, you know, you had a rough time getting the two guys out that are on base right now. So we need to get you some help. And typically I'll be honest with them, and I'll give them a reason. If they've just thrown too many pitches, I just didn't like what I saw, I'll tell them. I said, listen, I believe that you could get this next guy out, but right now we're in a bind, and we need some help.

But there's not a lot of that conversation that goes on, believe it or not. Once again, I have maybe two veteran pitchers that are starters, and it's typically the starters that are trying to stay in the game a little longer. They will give me kind of a lobbying position, but I know it before I ever get there. So I'm either - once again, I'm, you know, on a reconnaissance where I'm just seeing what they're thinking, and I've had them talk me into it before. And I'll tell them, hey, you're about your pitch count. You've got five pitches left. You better get us these two outs in five pitches, or I'm coming back to get you, and then they're prepared for when I come out the second time.

DAVIES: All right. Arguing with umpires is part of a manager's job. What's your approach to that?

MATHENY: You know, this video review's kind of taken that art away. And not that I was ever very good at it 'cause I hadn't been around this gig very long, but with the opportunity to go to replay at the big-league level, there really isn't much of it. You kind of go out, and you have an awkward conversation with an umpire that you're kind of frustrated with that you have to be out there anyhow because you thought he missed the call. But in the meanwhile, instead of getting all angry, you're kind of asking him if he wants a cup of tea and how his family's doing while we're waiting for the video process to go through. And once we get that information, then we either take it to video or we tell him, hey, you know what? I was wrong. You got it right. I'll go back to where I was.

So - but there is still a little bit of an art of that between the managers and the home plate umpire trying to get the kind of strike zone that you want. So it happens every night, and we're trying to manipulate to get better pitches called and making sure that we're being treated fairly.

DAVIES: And are there times you want to get ejected? When would you want to be ejected?

MATHENY: (Laughter) Well, yeah, that happens. Typically, it's when I know my team needs to see me stand up for them, and they just got to know that I'll fight for them. And most of the time, they're being wronged by an umpire in their mind and when our team has been beaten down a little bit. And you can tell that our morale's down because through 162 games, you're going to have those stretches where things just aren't quite right. And they need to see some life.

And believe it or not, I mean, there are dull days, even in the big leagues, to where it just - it's almost monotonous. And these guys do need to show up with a very workmanlike attitude. But when it turns into bland and stale, every once in a while they need a little kick, and I believe a manager can bring that. And lot of times, unfortunately, it's the interaction between an umpire and the manager.

DAVIES: Now, one of the things that happens in big-league baseball is there are times when it's considered acceptable for a pitcher to deliberately throw at and hit another batter, maybe when one of your teammates has been hit by the opposing pitcher, maybe when a batter has sort of violated the rules of etiquette by showing up your pitcher or, you know, strutting around the bases after a home run. And I - one thing that occurred to me as I read about these things is, you know, I know that you felt that retaliation is never acceptable in youth ball, and you write about a couple of cases in the book where that just should not happen in youth baseball. Why is it OK among grown-ups to do that - to hit somebody in response to something happening in the game?

MATHENY: Oh, boy. This is a tough topic. And, you know, I do have my own personal beliefs on where I stand. It is against the rules. It's very clear, and it comes back also to the conversation we just had about being able to stand up for your players and making sure that they're being protected, and this is on the physical side. But I'm glad you started with this not being something that's acceptable at the youth level. I don't - I just truly don't believe - and why do I think it's acceptable in one place and not the other? And I think, one, comes down to it's our livelihood. And we're talking about the health, potentially lives, and so we have to make sure that we're very careful, you know, not to have anything happen to where somebody's throwing it at somebody else's head. And, I mean, some bad things can happen there.

But there are also - I believe there's rules within the rules of the game. If we were having this conversation after something just happened, I'd just be telling you that, yeah, we like to pitch inside, sometimes it gets away. But there's other times when somebody takes too many liberties, and we've got to make sure that they're uncomfortable with the pitch inside. And, once again, my job description is figuring out how to defend my guys the best that I can.

DAVIES: You know, I know that's the explanation that people give - I had to protect my guys. But I'm - when I think it through, I think, well, does that really make it any less likely that your guys are going to get hurt if, you know, if you whack their shortstop in the back. Does it, do you think?

MATHENY: It does stop nonsense. And if people are just freely throwing up and in on a player or on a team and they feel there's no negative repercussions, the only way to get it to stop is sometimes do the same thing, and then the umpires will step in, and then you're talking about ejections. You're talking about suspensions. If the umpires don't step in - and they oftentimes do a very good job of starting to smell when something like that's coming along, and they'll jump in. But if it's not and our guys continue to be targets, yeah, it actually does start to slow down the impact that that could have.

DAVIES: You were a catcher, which is really a unique position. There is so much going on. And one of the things you do is call pitches, right? I mean, you decide what pitch you think the pitcher should throw. And big-league pitchers have a lot of options - you know, fastballs, curves and sliders and sinkers. Is that like - almost like composing a piece of music 'cause there's just so many variables - what the pitcher can throw well, what the hitter is vulnerable to.

MATHENY: Yeah. I think that's a great comparison. When everything's going right, it does become like a dance to me. And when you and the pitcher are thinking along the same lines, you had a game plan, a very clear plan early on of how you'd like to start certain hitters and then maybe how you'll approach them in their third at-bat in the game. And you know where you've been, you know where you want to go and you kind of have an idea of how you're going to get through the middle pitches - that to me was the truest enjoyment I had - and obviously winning, but next to that was being really locked in with the pitcher and in the middle of that dance just knowing what the next step was going to be. And you guys - you were just thinking alike. You had that ability to kind of read each other's minds. And when that's working, and they're able to execute each pitch, it's hard to describe how much fun that is.

DAVIES: Mike Matheny is manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. His book "The Matheny Manifesto" is out in paperback. Coming up, I ask him about those nasty collisions with runners at home plate and the risk of concussions. And David Edelstein reviews the new Pixar film "Finding Dory." I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

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DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. My guest is former big-league catcher and St. Louis Cardinals manager Mike Matheny. He has a book about how parents should handle kids in youth baseball called "The Matheny Manifesto." It's now out in paperback.

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DAVIES: You know, it's interesting, in football, quarterbacks used to call the plays. And then they got to the point where they would often signal the play in from the sideline. And nowadays in pro football, I believe quarterbacks actually let the coaches call the signals, and they receive it through a speaker in their helmet. And I'm sure you could do that in baseball. You could figure out a way for the manager to tell the catcher what pitch should be called. Will that ever happen, or does the catcher know something nobody else does?

MATHENY: Yeah, I believe that could happen. I think it would be a tragedy. You know, I look at my situation, and I have one of the best catchers in the history of the game behind the plate in Yadier Molina.

DAVIES: He is, yeah.

MATHENY: And I also know that what is seen behind the plate is completely different from what we see from the side. And even though we have a great seat, maybe 70 to 90 feet away in the dugout and we're on the top step closest to everything that's going on, you can't see the subtle movements. You can't see that this hitter just moved his back foot two inches closer to the plate, or he just scooted up maybe three or four inches trying to get the breaking ball before it breaks. You can't see the late movement. And for some reason today, this guy's fastball's cutting more than it's sinking, so let's capitalize on it, or the curveball is coming out loopy out of his hands, and you can just sense that these hitters timing's right on the curveball. And those sort of things, you just can't sense. It's a sixth sense that happens for the catchers when they're really - when they really have their antenna up.

DAVIES: How much talking do you do to a pitcher? I mean, not at a mound conference, but just in the regular course of it.

MATHENY: Not much unless they're really struggling. When they're going well, you just leave them alone.

But when a guy's struggling, you try and walk him through it. Sometimes you're just trying to walk him off the cliff when he doesn't feel like he has his stuff. That's a great part of a catcher's job, and I think a manager and coach can do the same thing - is just find something little to give them to put some hope into them. And a lot of those mound visits that we talked about earlier, that's what it is. You're going out and maybe distracting him little bit and say, hey, you know what you're doing? Your glove's coming up too soon. Just concentrate on relaxing that front arm, and trust your stuff. You've got great stuff. I'm an encourager. I mean, that's just - I believe it's a gift that I have. And our guys, regardless of how experienced, regardless of the accolades and the accomplishments - they constantly need that source of encouragement. And so typically when I do have conversations with them, it's encouraging and challenging them all in the same breath.

DAVIES: You know, anybody who watches big league ball will see - for any length of time - will see moments when a foul tip will catch the catcher, you know, in an unprotected part of his shoulder or arm or wrist or square on the mask and think, my God, how does he get up and keep playing? You did this for 13 years, and you got banged up a lot. Did you ever get to the point where you felt fear back there?

MATHENY: No, never really did. And I think there's a sick part of catchers that they don't mind having all of those bruises, and that's almost a badge of honor. And yeah, I watched Yadier Molina take a couple in the inner thigh, which - that's a bad spot. There's a couple other really bad spots, too, we don't even need to mention.

But it's just part of the position, and typically catchers have kind of been able to kind of figure out a way to mask whatever that pain is to where they don't even acknowledge it during the game.

And he wears it. He plays it off and keeps going with the game. And you go inside after the game, and guys start stripping down and, you know, they're in their shorts and you realize how many foul balls they took.

DAVIES: Tell us about how your career ended.

MATHENY: You know, I was fortunate that - you know, my career almost ended a couple of times before I even got to St. Louis. I was released twice - once by the Brewers, once by the Blue Jays - and I thought my career was over before it ever had really begun. But over a series of years, another badge of honor that catchers really took a lot of pride in before was blocking the plate to where you hold the ball and just lay in front of the plate so the runner will run into you - a lot of times, a violent collision.

And it happened a lot. There was one season I probably had six of those. And every time I'd have a play like that, we never kept our helmet or mask on. We threw them off. That was just kind of the way we were taught as well.

And, you know, every time it would be some sort of concussion, which was just a very loose term used. And going back through the archives and going back through the records, there were sometimes - somewhere between 25 and 30 concussions that they'd put on me for either, you know, getting by a ball or from collisions at the plate and then finally, the last year of my career, a series of foul tips, which don't hurt at all.

It's the best place to be hit, to be honest with you.

DAVIES: Well, you got hit in the mask as opposed to one of your limbs?

MATHENY: Correct.

DAVIES: Yeah, yeah.

MATHENY: Right, when it hit off the mask. And apparently, the more concussions you have, the more you are susceptible to having another concussion with less impact. And so apparently what had happened was I'd had so many collisions at the plate that now I was at the point where even a foul ball would give me a concussion. And I had a matter of four foul balls in about three games that hit me straight in the mask. And then it was a multiple concussion syndrome that took me out of the game.

DAVIES: And you were really hurt for months, right? I mean, you were confused at times?

MATHENY: Oh, it was the scariest 18 months of my life when - I felt like I could play through anything and took a lot of pride in playing with broken this or that, but this was different. I knew that my brain was not right. And what really caught my attention was the fact that I couldn't think. I couldn't remember. This is right in the middle of the game. So this is after I'd taken a couple foul balls to the mask, and I'd never had any repercussions from that over 20 years of catching. But what really caught my attention - I went out and talked to one of my pitchers. I told him what pitch I needed him to throw, and by the time I got back behind the plate, I completely forget what I said. And it was to the point where I was having trouble seeing. I was having trouble reacting. My fine motor skills were giving me difficulty to where I had no chance as I was hitting and very difficult to even catch up with catching a ball.

The training staff - medical people finally caught on, and they knew I was putting myself at danger, and so then they sent me off for some testing. And then the next 18 months, after they put me on the disabled list, just some weird things. I drove off with the gas nozzle in my car three times in one month. I couldn't multitask at all. Every time I'd drive somewhere, I'd have to call my wife and ask her where I was going. And it was very, very scary to the point that I knew I had some brain damage. And I think that's something that baseball, football and hockey are all doing a much better job - even soccer - of acknowledging the fact that a concussion is not this mild thing. It's a brain injury. It's trauma to the brain, and we better be real careful with those.

DAVIES: Tell us about how your career ended.

MATHENY: You know, I was fortunate that - you know, my career almost ended a couple of times before I even got to St. Louis. I was released twice - once by the Brewers, once by the Blue Jays - and I thought my career was over before it ever had really begun. But over a series of years, another badge of honor that catchers really took a lot of pride in before was blocking the plate to where you hold the ball and just lay in front of the plate so the runner will run into you - a lot of times, a violent collision. And if you come up with a ball and you hold onto it without dropping it, that's success. And it happened a lot. There was one season I probably had six of those. And every time I'd have a play like that, we never kept our helmet or mask on. We threw them off. That was just kind of the way we were taught as well.

And, you know, every time it would be some sort of concussion, which was just a very loose term used. And going back through the archives and going back through the records, there were sometimes - somewhere between 25 and 30 concussions that we - that they had put on me for whatever - either, you know, getting hit by a ball or from collisions at the plate - and then finally, my last year of my career, a series of foul tips, which don't hurt at all. I never before had any acknowledgement of it. It's the best place to be hit, to be honest with you.

DAVIES: Well, you got hit in the mask as opposed to one of your limbs?

MATHENY: Correct.

DAVIES: Yeah, yeah.

MATHENY: Right, when it hit off the mask. And apparently, the more concussions you have, the more you are susceptible to having another concussion with less impact. And so apparently what had happened was I'd had so many collisions at the plate that now I was at the point where even a foul ball would give me a concussion. And I had a matter of four foul balls in about three games that hit me straight in the mask. And then it was a multiple concussion syndrome that took me out of the game.

DAVIES: And you were really hurt for months, right? I mean, you were confused at times?

MATHENY: Oh, it was the scariest 18 months of my life when - I felt like I could play through anything and took a lot of pride in playing with broken this or that, but this was different. I knew that my brain was not right. And what really caught my attention was the fact that I couldn't think. I couldn't remember. This is right in the middle of the game. So this is after I'd taken a couple foul balls to the mask, and I'd never had any repercussions from that over 20 years of catching. But what really caught my attention - I went out and talked to one of my pitchers. I told him what pitch I needed him to throw, and by the time I got back behind the plate, I completely forget what I said. And it was to the point where I was having trouble seeing. I was having trouble reacting. My fine motor skills were giving me difficulty to where I had no chance as I was hitting and very difficult to even catch up with catching a ball.

The training staff - medical people finally caught on, and they knew I was putting myself at danger, and so then they sent me off for some testing. And then the next 18 months, after they put me on the disabled list, just some weird things. I drove off with the gas nozzle in my car three times in one month. I couldn't multitask at all. Every time I'd drive somewhere, I'd have to call my wife and ask her where I was going. And it was very, very scary to the point that I knew I had some brain damage. And I think that's something that baseball, football and hockey are all doing a much better job - even soccer - of acknowledging the fact that a concussion is not this mild thing. It's a brain injury. It's trauma to the brain, and we better be real careful with those.

DAVIES: Well, Mike Matheny, there are lot of National League fans that would not want me to wish you a good season, but I'm going to say I've enjoyed it. Thanks a lot and have a great year with the Cardinals.

MATHENY: Dave, thank you very much.

DAVIES: Mike Matheny is manages the St. Louis Cardinals. His book "The Matheny Manifesto" is out in paperback. This is FRESH AIR.
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BEYOND THE SEA")

DAVIES: If you're taking your kids to the movies this weekend, you'll probably hear this song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BEYOND THE SEA")

ROBBIE WILLIAMS: (Singing) Somewhere beyond the sea, somewhere waiting for me my lover stands on golden sands and watches the ships that go sailing. Somewhere beyond the sea...

DAVIES: This version by Robbie Williams was done for the closing credits of the Pixar film "Finding Nemo." "Beyond The Sea" is also featured in the sequel "Finding Dory," which our film critic David Edelstein will review in a few minutes. It's been recorded by many singers but the most popular version is the 1959 hit by Bobby Darin. We thought we'd spend a few minutes hearing about Darin from the late Nick Venet, who was Darin's close friend and producer. Here's an excerpt of the interview Terry Gross recorded with Venet in 1996.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

How did you meet Bobby Darin?

NICK VENET: We were both in our teens, I guess, and we were working at the Brill Building in New York. The Brill Building was the music mecca of pop music, I guess, at that time. And it was centrally located. And we met a lot of people, like Burt Bacharach had an office there. Leiber and Stoller had an office there. And Darin and I rented a broom closet and converted it into an office (laughter). And we just wanted a place to put our names on the door.

And he wrote songs and I tried to put records together. The word producer had - was not being used at that time. And we actually met in the elevator at the Brill Building and - several times. And we ate in the same restaurant around the corner. And we just became friends and - a group of us really. And we started hanging out and using the broom closet as a place to meet. And we kept the piano in there and a place to write and play demos.

GROSS: Now, I want to play the demo of another early hit that he had, "Dream Lover." And - wow, this demo's great. His singing on it is so good, and it's much more stripped-down. It's very stripped-down, so it's different from the very produced hit recording of this song. And tell me the story behind this demo.

VENET: Well, he felt that if the song didn't make it with people, if they really didn't get the message with just him and the guitar - by the way, the guitarist is Fred Neil. At that time, Fred had written a song called "Candy Man" for Roy Orbison and he also wrote wrote "Everybody's Talkin'" for the Schlesinger film "Midnight Cowboy." He wanted to try something which wasn't being done at that time.

Everything was very - in that period of time, everything was cute and pretty. And he wanted to do something that was not cute, not pretty but worked on another level. And he made the demo at the session with just Fred playing the guitar. Then later on, everybody asked him to add more, add more. And he did and he went on and of course it was a hit. Either version will make it for me, too. But that version's real special because it's just Bobby and the guitar. And he sings it as well as he sang anything else.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DREAM LOVER")

BOBBY DARIN: "Dream Lover," take five. (Singing) Every night I hope and pray a dream lover will come my way, a girl to hold in my arms and know the magic of her charms 'cause I need a girl to call my all. I want a dream lover so I don't have to dream alone.

GROSS: Although he started off with rock 'n' roll hits, he seemed to know early on that he wanted to sing standards and probably end up in Vegas. Now, a lot of rock 'n' rollers in the late '50s and early '60s were groomed to play Vegas but often against their will. But the feeling was rock 'n' roll is a fad, and unless you learn how to play Vegas, you'll be out of a career by the time you're in your 20s. Was it...

VENET: Well, you're correct.

GROSS: Yeah, go ahead.

VENET: That particular time period - you know, we were still coming out of the late '40s. The influence in the '50s was from the adults in the late '40s. And singing was legitimate and you had to play in a club and you had to play Vegas and those venues or you weren't a success. And if you didn't learn to play those places, you would end up doing one-nighters with 20 other acts that had one hit on various disc jockey shows in small towns. And a lot of the rock 'n' rollers could not do the pop situation and a lot of them could. And the transition was tough for some. There was Paul Anka who made the transition. And there was very few of them really. And Darin made the great transition.

GROSS: You know, for a lot of people in rock 'n' roll - listeners and performers - Vegas symbolized everything that was square and unsavory about show business. Why did Bobby Darin want that?

VENET: Well, Darin thought that he could actually bridge the gap and bring his audience - and the word teenagers is the word they use, people under the age of 25. He could actually bring them up to where they too would appreciate Sinatra. They'd appreciate Tony Bennett. They'd appreciate pop music. And he tried to cross it. He tried to keep the rhythm and the tempo for dancing situations and for the excitement. And later on, when you get into "Mack The Knife," you'll see he did it.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Mack The Knife" as recorded by Bobby Darin in late 1958.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MACK THE KNIFE")

DARIN: (Singing) Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear. And it shows them pearly whites. Just a jackknife has old Macheath, babe, and he keeps it out of sight. You know when that shark bites with his teeth, babe, scarlet billows start to spread. Fancy gloves, oh, wears old Macheath, babe, so there's never never a trace of red.

Now, on the sidewalk, oh, sunny morning lies a body just oozing life. And someone's sneaking 'round the corner. Could that someone be Mack the Knife? There's a tugboat down by the river, don't you know, where a cement bag's just drooping on down. Oh, that cement is just - it's there for the weight, dear. Five'll get you 10 old Macky's back in town. Now, did you hear about Louie Miller? He disappeared...

GROSS: He died of a heart condition. How long was he aware that he had a heart condition? Did he always know that?

VENET: Yes, he did. He knew that from when he was a small kid, when he was in his - when he was 8 or 9 years old he understood that. He also understood he wasn't going to make it to 21 and then he - then the new diagnosis said 30. We're the exact age - and he passed away at 36-37. He outlived the sentences they gave him of how long he was going to live. But he also knew that he had pressed his luck. We did a lot of gambling. We loved Las Vegas, and he used to say I'm playing it like it lays. Towards the end there he used to say, boy, I'm pressing my luck, but I'm going to double up. And that was his phrase all the time. He said we'll go in the studio. I'm going to double up and see if I can do an album while I still have the energy. He was wearing down towards the end.

GROSS: I'd like to close with a song, and I'm going to let you pick this one. I'd like you to pick and to introduce a song that you particularly love or that has special significance for you.

VENET: I'd like to play "Beyond The Sea."

GROSS: And why do you want to choose this?

VENET: Darin would go up to Pfeiffer Beach all the time and Big Sur. And that's where he did his best thinking towards the end. And he would whistle "Beyond The Sea" on the beach and I'd walk, oh, a quarter of a mile behind him because he'd want me to see how the sound sounded when the wind brought it back. He was still planning on recording a new version of "Beyond The Sea" at Pfeiffer Beach. It just means a lot.

DAVIES: Our interview with Nick Venet was recorded in 1996. Venet died in 1998. He was 61.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BEYOND THE SEA")

DARIN: (Singing) Somewhere beyond the sea, somewhere waiting for me my lover stands on golden sands and watches the ships that go sailing. Somewhere beyond the sea she's there watching for me. If I could fly like birds on high then straight to her arms I'd go sailing. It's far beyond the stars. It's near beyond the moon. I'll know beyond a doubt my heart will lead me there soon. We'll meet beyond the shore. We'll kiss just like before. Happy we'll be beyond the sea and never again I'll go sailing.
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

Thirteen years ago, Pixar had one of its biggest hits with Andrew Stanton's "Finding Nemo" featuring the voices of Albert Brooks as a fish in search of his wayward son and Ellen DeGeneres as his sidekick, Dory. In the sequel, "Finding Dory," DeGeneres' memory-challenged fish searches for the parents she barely remembers. Film critic David Edelstein has this review.

DAVID EDELSTEIN, BYLINE: Building a movie on a one-joke sidekick - Dory, the fish with short-term memory loss - is risky. And the first 20 minutes of the fish odyssey "Finding Dory" made me doubt the risk would pay off. It's a formulaic start for the normally unformulaic (ph) Pixar. But then, the studio's peculiar genius kicks in, and suddenly all is right under the sea.

It helps if you don't expect this one to be too much like "Finding Nemo," which was wonderfully complete. That movie began horribly - a massacre in which the clownfish Marlin lost his family, apart from one son. Predictably, he overprotected that son. And predictably, that son, Nemo, leapt at the chance to be independent. What followed was scary, painful and emotionally knotty but also hilarious thanks to a great script and the vocal pairing of Albert Brooks as the semi-hysterical Marlin and Ellen DeGeneres as Dory, his sweet, befuddled companion.

Don't expect anything like a massacre kicking off "Finding Dory." It's a gentler, cuter opening - too cute for my taste. Dory is a big-eyed little fish. Her eyes are as big as her head. And her doting parents are teaching her to navigate a world in which disorientation for her is the rule. Of course, Dory is fated to lose her parents and much of her identity. But the movie doesn't show you how she became separated from them until later, filling in what happened as she remembers it. That makes for a big payoff down the road but a perfunctory start.

Picking up a year after "Finding Nemo," Dory has a flashback - the remembrance triggered not by a madeleine but a stingray migration.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FINDING DORY")

ELLEN DEGENERES: (As Dory) My family - I remember my family. They're out there somewhere. I have to find them. Guys, you got to help me, guys, guys - hello? Guys, where are you?

ALBERT BROOKS: (As Marlin) Dory.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) Hello?

BROOKS: (As Marlin) Dory.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) Ahh. Where did you go?

BROOKS: (As Marlin) You were the one to go.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) My parents - I remembered them.

HAYDEN ROLENCE: (As Nemo) Wait, what did you remember?

DEGENERES: (As Dory) I remembered them - my mom, my dad. I have a family. They don't know where I am. Let's go. We have to go...

BROOKS: (As Marlin) Dory, no, no - this is crazy. Where exactly are you trying to go?

DEGENERES: (As Dory) To the gem of the - Baltic...

HAYDEN: (As Nemo) The Jewel of Morro Bay, Calif.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) Yes.

BROOKS: (As Marlin) No, Dory, California's all the way across the ocean.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) Then we better get going.

BROOKS: (As Marlin) How come every time we're on the edge of this reef one of us is trying to leave? For once, can't we just enjoy the view?

DEGENERES: (As Dory) How can you be talking about the view when I remembered my family?

BROOKS: (As Marlin) No, no - we've done our ocean travels. That part of our lives is over. The only reason to travel in the first place is so you don't have to travel ever again.

DEGENERES: (As Dory) Yeah but I want to...

DAVIES: Albert Brooks' Marlin is a party pooper in that scene and Ellen DeGeneres' Dory - so scattered that I got a little bored. My mind went to dumb places, like wondering why a fish would know the distance to California or speak English or know how to read.

But directors Andrew Stanton and Angus MacLane have a lot up their sleeve - so much I'm willing to proclaim it the biggest, busiest and best sleeve in the business. The movie kicks into gear when Dory gets to California, to a rescue-and-rehab aquarium modeled on an actual one in Monterey Bay. As she finds her way around - she can read signs and maps - that aquarium becomes a stage - really, multiple stages - for the kind of slapstick set pieces that reduce audiences to puddles of laughter. By the end, my stomach muscles were aching.

How does a fish travel among the complex's many buildings on land? Courtesy of the most marvelous new character, Hank, voiced by Ed O'Neill. He's an octopus - make that a septopus (ph) - his term - since he lost an arm in an accident he's still sore about. Hank is a selfish loner who doesn't think he can survive if he's returned to the ocean. On land, though, he's super resourceful. He can turn any color, slither anywhere, steer any vehicle. I can't do justice to the joy of watching him zigzag in a baby carriage with Dory balanced in a bowl on his lap. The animation is as witty as the dialogue, and Hank is the most delightfully dexterous creature since Bugs Bunny - with three extra limbs to play with.

It's a little jarring that "Finding Dory" gets a lot of comic mileage out of disability - Dory's, obviously, but also a perpetually disoriented whale shark named Destiny, a Beluga named Bailey with no faith in his radar and a seriously brain-damaged bird. But since everyone triumphs over his or her weakness, you could call "Finding Dory" inspirational. At times, it's something deeper. You see the world through Dory's eyes - spinning, objects dissolving along with her memories, a world with nothing to hang onto.

Is it finally as deep as "Finding Nemo?" Maybe not. But it's like the kiddie pool of your childhood dreams. You never want to stop splashing.

DAVIES: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine.
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