Film director and writer Dominik Moll.

DATE June 5, 2001 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Ron Sexsmith talks about his music career and new CD
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Even if you haven't heard of my guest, the Canadian singer-songwriter Ron
Sexsmith, you probably do know two of his fans, Paul McCartney and Elvis
Costello. In 1995, Costello said about Sexsmith's first CD, `I've been
playing it all year and could listen to it for another 20.' One of Sexsmith's
songs is featured on the new CD Costello recorded with singer Anne Sophie Von
Otter. FRESH AIR rock critic Ken Tucker has praised Sexsmith's music. In a
1999 review, Ken said, `Sexsmith's music takes its strength from the author's
lyrical vulnerability, yet his material rarely sounds spineless or soggy
because he has such a sure sense of melody and narrative.'

Sexsmith's fourth CD "Blue Boy" has just been released. It's produced by
fellow singer-songwriter and guitarist Steve Earle. Ron Sexsmith brought his
guitar for our interview but let's start with the opening track from his new
CD. It's called "This Song.

(Soundbite of "This Song")

Mr. RON SEXSMITH (Singer-Songwriter): (Singing) Brought a song into this
world. Just a melody with words. It trembles here before my eyes. How can
this song survive? I brought it to the tower of gold.

GROSS: That's Ron Sexsmith from his new CD "Blue Boy." Ron Sexsmith, welcome
to FRESH AIR.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Thanks a lot.

GROSS: This new CD is more rock-oriented than some of your earlier work. And
you have a new producer for it. The singer-songwriter and guitarist Steve
Earle. Tell me about the new sounds on the new CD.

Mr. SEXSMITH: It's kind of more--I guess you could say I'm revisiting an
older sound. When Steve Earle first heard me it was actually back in 1988
when I was playing with my band in Toronto and he literally just walked in off
the street. And we were doing more of an up-tempo thing, almost--you know, in
a Buddy Holly and the Crickets-mode. And, I guess, you know, he's been
following my career, you know, the three records. And he's always wondered
why I hadn't made a record like that. So I think that was one of his main
ideas going into this album, was that he was determined for it to rock a
bit more.

GROSS: So many great rock records are about the production on the record as
well as the song itself. So I'm wondering when you write a song, if you hear
the kind of production you want for it?

Mr. SEXSMITH: Every now and then I have a pretty clear vision of how a song
should go and sometimes it goes exactly that way. But more often than not,
because, you know, I'm collaborating with a producer who's hearing it and
getting his own ideas, the songs often take on surprising shapes, you know.
On this record there was--even the first song, which was written more, as,
like I say, kind of a country shuffle or a rock-n-roll shuffle, Steve heard it
more, you know, in kind of Beatle territory, you know, like something off of
"Revolver." And so it was kind of a nice surprise for me to see that it could
go that way. And it comes on quite strong with the horns and everything
so--and that happens all the time. There's also a song that was written, like
almost a straight-ahead Gordon Lightfoot song that turned into a ska tune on
the record.

GROSS: I really like your songwriting. When did you start being aware of
some song craft and what it was that you admired about well-written songs?

Mr. SEXSMITH: I guess, I've always been attracted to music that was strong
melodically, I guess, beginning, you know, with Buddy Holly. He was always
much more melodic than Elvis Presley, for example, you know. And I know that
he was a big influence on The Beatles, which I gradually stumbled upon as
well. The first guy that ever really turned me on to songwriting, or made me
want to be a songwriter, was probably Ray Davies. I remember hearing him on
the radio...

GROSS: It was Ray Davies of The Kinks.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Ray Davies of The Kinks, yeah. I remember hearing him on the
radio, I was driving with my dad. And "All Day and All the Night" came on and
I'd never heard it before. You know, I must have been about 15 or 16, and I'm
sure that it had the same effect on me as someone hearing it for the first
time in '65, or whenever it came out. The very next day I rushed out and
bought this album called "The Golden Hour of the Kinks," and I was hooked,
really. His songs, they were so--they just seemed like perfect, you know,
these little vignettes--little gems where he would have these characters and
sometimes there would be a story that would resolve in just a matter of, you
know, two or three verses. And I still hear a lot of his influence in my
music.

GROSS: Before you started recording you were, I believe, hired as a
songwriter for a record label. Most record labels outside of, say, Nashville
I think don't have songwriters on hire.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: How did this come about?

Mr. SEXSMITH: Well, I'd been struggling for years in Toronto trying to get
off the ground and, eventually, I made an independent cassette called "Grand
Opera Lane," that, you know, made its way down to some Los Angeles labels.
And, I mean, I couldn't get anything happening in Canada and all of a sudden
there were these big honchos from LA flying in to see me. And the feeling
was, from almost everyone that saw me, was that I was a better songwriter than
a singer or a performer. So I ended up getting signed to Interscope
Publishing. And at that time I thought: `Well, maybe that's all it's ever
going to be.' It was a bit disappointing because it was kind of like winning
second prize in a way. So for the first year I just wrote songs for myself,
you know, but with the idea that maybe someone else would record them and that
possibly would lead to me getting a chance to do them myself. So I was really
surprised when, you know, about a year later we were getting interest from
labels about signing me. And things started to open up for me and the next
thing you know I was signing a record contract.

GROSS: When you were signed to the publishing company, did anyone record your
songs?

Mr. SEXSMITH: No, it's funny. It's only--it's something that's happening
very recently. I mean, Rod Stewart was the first big cut that I had a few
years ago. And that didn't--I mean, it didn't sell a whole lot and stuff.
But that was one of the first ones. And recently, you know, we've had Mary
Black, and Sophie Van Otter's a Swedish opera singer who just covered one of
my songs. So little by little, it's getting out there that these songs are
coverable.

GROSS: You mentioned the song "Secret Heart" that Rod Stewart did. It's your
song; maybe you can sing a little bit of it for us.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah. Actually, my voice will probably sound a bit like Rod
Stewart's today. I've been doing so many interviews it's been getting quite
gravelly. Here we go.

(Soundbite of "Secret Heart")

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) Secret heart, what are you made of? What are you so
afraid of? Could it be three simple words or the fear of feeling all the
hurt? What's wrong? Let her in on your secret heart.

That's the first verse anyway.

GROSS: Let me play another track from your new CD "Blue Boy," and this is
another song that you wrote. We've mentioned that Steve Earle produced your
new CD. He's featured on guitar on this. The song is called "Just My Heart
Talkin'." Tell us something about writing it.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Well, it's actually, you know, a song that I'm very proud of.
It's, you know, one of my favorites on the record, actually. You know, I'm
having a hard time remembering exactly what triggered it off, but I guess it's
a song about, you know, life on the road in a way and temptation and all that
stuff that can get you into trouble. It was also written at a time when, you
know, my home situation, my relationship was--you know, it wasn't going very
well, and so there's a bit of that in this song, you know, 'cause I guess in
life we're sort of guided by all these different things. Sometimes it's our
conscience and sometimes it's our heart, and other times it's more of, you
know, these animal urges as we have as human beings, etc. But anyway, so it's
kind of a--I was trying to get all this into this simple pop song, if that
makes any sense.

GROSS: Yeah, and I like simple pop songs, especially when they're
well-written. So, OK...

Mr. SEXSMITH: They're my favorite kind.

GROSS: So this is "Just My Heart Talkin'," and when you wrote the song, did
you hear it in your head with this kind of an arrangement or did the version
of it on the CD transform the song for you?

Mr. SEXSMITH: This is one of those that came off pretty much the way I
envisioned it. It's a little, you know--again, I guess it has more of a
Beatley sound than I expected. I remember when I first wrote it, I had this
idea in my head for the solo to be played on, like, a celesta or a xylophone,
kind of the way--remember the song by Buddy Holly, "Everyday"?

GROSS: Sure.

Mr. SEXSMITH: There was a little solo. Yeah. But, you know, it was good
that Steve put some acoustic guitar on this track, which kind of holds it
down. It gives it a kind of--you know, he's kind of holding it down in the
way that John Lennon used to do with those Beatle recordings. So but, yeah, I
think it came out quite nice.

GROSS: This is Ron Sexsmith from his new CD "Blue Boy."

(Soundbite from "Just My Heart Talkin'")

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) My eyes are telling me leave well enough alone.
These boots are telling me keep walking. Other voices saying don't let go.
That's just my heart talking. It's always leading me where I do not belong.
The door is where I should be knocking. Trying to pass yourself off for a
song. That's just my heart talking. It's talking and sometimes I don't know
what to say. Pretend to look the other way. You talking, you talking to me.

GROSS: That's "Just My Heart Talkin'" from Ron Sexsmith's new CD "Blue Boy."
You mentioned that some of your songs have a kind of Beatley sound to them. I
know Paul McCartney is one of the people who really admires your work, and I
believe you met him once. Was it awkward for you to meet him since you admire
The Beatles' work so much? It can be very awkward to meet...

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: ...someone who's a personal hero.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah. I still can't get over the fact that I met him. I
mean, it was my very first time in England, and about a week later I'm sitting
across the table from him at his house having breakfast, and it was surreal,
you know, to say the least. I couldn't even look at him for the first half an
hour or so. And the other thing is I was a big fan of Wings, and so when I
started to open up and to talk to him a bit more, all my questions were, I'd
say 90 percent about various Wings tracks which I think he was kind of
flattered, because I'm sure he's tired of talking about The Beatles all the
time, so, I mean, after that things started to get--you know, I loosened up
and we actually got around to playing some guitars and where I played "Listen
to What the Man Said," which was, you know, a big hit for Wings.

GROSS: My guest is Ron Sexsmith. His new CD is called "Blue Boy." We'll
talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is Ron Sexsmith. He has a new CD called "Blue Boy."

When you were young and playing in a band, did you go through a period of
doing mostly cover songs? I don't know if you went through a period of
playing in bars.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh, I did, yeah. For me, that was equivalent of someone going
to college to become a lawyer or something. I mean, the minute I got out of
high school I was 17, and my brother arranged an audition for me at this local
bar where he was playing in a band, and I got the gig and for about four
years, almost every weekend, I was playing this place called the Lion's
Tavern, just doing everybody else's songs. I was pretty much a one-man
jukebox.

GROSS: I...

Mr. SEXSMITH: It was good for me--I'm sorry.

GROSS: I was thinking, though, the good thing about that if you're a would-be
songwriter is that you really get to study other people's songs and maybe hear
things about their structure you might otherwise have noticed if you
weren't--you know.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: You notice more if you're playing it than if you're just listening.

Mr. SEXSMITH: That's exactly it. I think more people should do that
sometimes. I think it's--I mean, you know, when you're learning songs by The
Beatles and Paul Simon and Neil Diamond--whoever it is, you know--Gordon
Lightfoot and all these people, obviously they have a lot of experience there,
even though some of the songs that I was playing were songs that they wrote
when they were younger. I mean, they must've learned from somebody, too.

GROSS: I'm gonna ask you to play an excerpt of a song that you used to play
during your cover era, a song that you think is really well-made and you
noticed how well-written it was when you used to perform it.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Right.

GROSS: Maybe tell us why you like it, too.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Well, you know, coming from Canada, I mean, someone I've heard
all my life was Gordon Lightfoot and, you know, when you're playing the bars,
there are certain staples, I guess, like, you know, Neil Young, obviously.
You could play Neil Young all night and no one would mind. Or Creedence
Clearwater and all those people. And so I did all of that, and Gordon was
always one of my favorites and, I think, this is--you know, a lot of people
call him a folky, but he was actually a pop songwriter, you know. There are
songs--his songs are very well-crafted, almost like Bacharach in a way, and
this is one of the songs that I think opened my eyes a bit.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) At times I just don't know how you could be anything
but beautiful. Think that I was made for you. You were made for me. And I
know that I will never change. Sweet being friends through rain or shine, for
such a long, long time.

You know, something like that.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. You mentioned Gordon Lightfoot is Canadian, you're Canadian.
Did it matter a lot to you when you started listening to music if somebody was
Canadian or not? Like, was Joni Mitchell special to you because she's from
Canada?

Mr. SEXSMITH: It actually took me awhile to get around to the Canadian
songwriters, you know, because--I mean, the first people I stumbled upon that
really affected me were the British writers like Ray Davies and Pete Townshend
and all those folks. But as I got into my early twenties, you know, I did
start to look elsewhere, and I remember Gordon Lightfoot, for example, was
very influential and that, after seeing him in concert, I just thought it was
beautiful how he was standing up there on stage, at that time in his fifties,
and playing these great songs without making a big spectacle of himself; you
know, without any embarrassment. And it made me realize that just the
importance of a good song, really, you know. And it's the reason why Joni
Mitchell and Dylan and all those guys can continue playing. You know, their
music has never been about, you know, sexuality or being youthful. Even when
they were young, they were kind of old souls, and that had a big impact on
me.

GROSS: We've been talking about song craft and songwriters who influenced
you. I'm wondering if you're ever gotten into a period of listening to a lot
of Tin Pan Alley or, you know...

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: ...the American popular song, the Broadway songs.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh, definitely. I mean, I did kind of come full circle from
the British invasion to the more, you know, like the folk songwriters, I guess
you could say. I just was really hungry for more really. You know, I had
older friends who turned me on to people like Randy Newman and Tom Waits, and
I think through them, that kind of made me go back and to check out, you know,
Hoagy Carmichael, for example, or Cole Porter, and all those great
songwriters. I think some of the greatest songs of the last century were
written in that era and not in the--you know, I mean, Brian Wilson and all
those guys wrote obviously some beautiful stuff, but I still rate a song like
"Stardust," for example, to be one of the best songs ever written, and "Every
Time We Say Goodbye" by Cole Porter is really brilliant.

There's a kind of craft there that it wasn't about the hook, like so much of
music is today, where it's almost like it doesn't matter what's going on in
the verse because when the chorus hits, everybody can sing along. You know,
their songs were subtle, and I think subtlety is almost an endangered species
these days.

GROSS: Do you ever sing "Every Time We Say Goodbye"?

Mr. SEXSMITH: I do. I can play a bit of that, if you like.

GROSS: Yeah, tell us what's going on in the song that you so admire.

Mr. SEXSMITH: OK. If I can. It's just one of those songs that, I mean,
there's a strong sense of craft involved. You know, there's the famous line
where he says `from major to minor' and the chords change from major to minor
at that exact point, which is brilliant, really, you know. And...

GROSS: That's the line that goes `There's no love song finer but how strange
the change from major to minor.'

Mr. SEXSMITH: How strange does--that's right. Yeah, and that's very--like I
could do that verse, if you like.

GROSS: Sure, that'd be great.

Mr. SEXSMITH: This one.

GROSS: Yeah, good.

(Soundbite of "Every Time We Say Goodbye")

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) When you're near, there's such an air of spring about
it. I can hear a lark somewhere begin to sing about it. There's no love song
finer, and how strange this change from major to minor. Every time we say
goodbye.

So that's just one of the songs, many songs that I aspire to write, you know,
or I wish I could've written.

GROSS: Ron Sexsmith has a new CD called "Blue Boy." He'll be back in the
second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) Throw my cares to the wind. Hang my tears out on the
line. As for the love you gave me, I'll keep it in mind. All our troubles
and all were mostly of our own design. These are the words you told me. I'll
keep it in mind. All the love, all the days, it wasn't enough. All the pain,
all the faith, we couldn't rise above. I don't mind...

(Credits)

GROSS: Coming up, more with singer-songwriter Ron Sexsmith, and we meet
Dominik Moll, the writer and director of the acclaimed French film "With a
Friend Like Harry." It's been compared to some of the classic thrillers of
Alfred Hitchcock.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Canadian
singer-songwriter and guitarist Ron Sexsmith. He has a new CD called "Blue
Boy."

There's a song on your new CD that is more of a jazz-pop kind of song...

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yes.

GROSS: ...than a rock-pop kind of song, and it's called "Foolproof."

Mr. SEXSMITH: That's right.

GROSS: It's unlike most of the songs that you write because of that jazz
flavor to it. Tell us a little bit about the song, and then we'll hear some
of it.

Mr. SEXSMITH: OK. Well, that's a song that is almost like an exercise. I
was watching Diana Krall on TV. Are you familiar with her?

GROSS: Yeah, she's a jazz singer and pianist.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah. And she was doing, you know, an old standard, and it
was great, but I kept thinking to myself that, you know, there's so many great
new songs that she could be doing as well, you know, and I remember I had a
basketball game to go to--my son was playing in a game--and I started thinking
of a song for Diana Krall, and I pretty much wrote the whole song at the
basketball game. And I still don't know who won that game, you know. That's
the downside of having a songwriter for a dad, I guess. But when I got home,
I worked it out, I found the chords to go along with it, and it all came to me
quite fast. And I had no intention of recording it, to be honest with you,
'cause like I say, it was written with someone else in mind. But Steve really
liked that song, and he was the one that actually encouraged me to try it on
the piano, 'cause I guess he heard it in that late-night, you know, Chet Baker
territory. You know, as I was recording it, I was actually trying to sing it
like Charlie Rich, who's probably my favorite singer of all time. But what
you're hearing is the very first take of my very first attempt at playing it
on piano. It sounds very relaxed, but I was actually a nervous wreck, just
praying I wasn't going to make any bum notes.

GROSS: OK. Here it is, "Foolproof" from Ron Sexsmith's new CD "Blue Boy."

(Soundbite from "Foolproof")

Mr. SEXSMITH: (Singing) Foolproof, that's what my heart's become. And I
challenge anyone to break in. Challenge anyone to make me open up the door.
'Cause I've been fooled before, and now I'm foolproof.

GROSS: That's Ron Sexsmith singing his song "Foolproof," and he's also
featured at the piano. It's on his new CD "Blue Boy."

You've opened for a lot of people over the years. You've opened--correct me
if I'm wrong here--for Elvis Costello, The Chieftains, Sarah McLachlan,
Radiohead. These are different kinds of performers with different kinds of
audiences, and the one thing they had in common is that your opening. So
what's it like for you to do your songs to an audience that isn't necessarily
your audience, they don't necessarily know who you are yet?

Mr. SEXSMITH: You know, the first record, I pretty much--you know, that's
all I did was open for people, and I used to get really kind of down about it
sometimes because I wouldn't be on the poster and oftentimes I would--you
know, the lights would go down and everybody would start going nuts and then
this guy they never heard of would walk out on stage, you know, so I found it
a bit humbling, you know, but I kept doing it, and I think there were some
tours--the Elvis Costello tour was a bit different because he'd been so vocal
about my record that I think his audience, you know, they knew about me and
they were very respectful. But sometimes I found it could be real--like when
I opened for Tori Amos a couple times, I just felt, `What am I doing here?'
really, you know. So it's something that I try to do less of these days, just
for my own, you know, peace of mind or my self-esteem, 'cause I figure if I
have to be on the road as much as I am, I'd rather be playing my own shows.

GROSS: You know, a lot of rock critics who write about you talk about how
terrific your songs and your performances are, and yet how little radio play
you get and how you haven't, quote, "broken out" yet.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: I imagine that, you know, your record companies have tried things to
make it like, OK, this time.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: This time it's really gonna break through. Are there things that
you've had to do that you weren't really that enthusiastic about doing?

Mr. SEXSMITH: You mean on records or just...

GROSS: No, no, to just try to publicize yourself.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh. Well, I always feel a bit--'cause I guess I've spent all
this time working on the music and stuff that by the time I did get signed,
all of a sudden all these other aspects of the business that I hadn't really
been preparing for, like--for example, I'm a fashion disaster. I've never
known how to dress. I've never had a hairdo, you know. You know, my weight
goes up and down all the time. So I always feel kind of, like, apologetic
for, you know, like, video directors and stuff like that. It's like, oh, you
know, what are you gonna do with me, right? I mean, I'm always willing to do
the work. I do all the interviews, and I just came back from a 12-country
press tour, you know.

So some of it can get a bit awkward, but it's mostly the visual aspect of it
that I find a bit--I'm trying to get better at, you know, because I don't
think ultimately that's what's gonna make or break me. I'm also trying to
sing better, too, because I think when I hear my records now, there's not a
single track that I wouldn't do over, you know, because I think my singing has
gotten better. And so I think it's just a matter of getting the right record
and having a little luck on your side.

GROSS: What have you been doing to try to improve your singing?

Mr. SEXSMITH: Just listening to a lot of Charlie Rich. I don't know. Every
record, I just think--you know, I guess the thing I'm doing is trying to learn
from my mistakes, you know. I remember the first record, I just kept thinking
that I was singing so much behind the beat, and I thought my vibrato was a bit
untamed at different points, and so the second record I tried to approach it
differently. And now when I hear that record I think I'm in slow motion. And
so with each record I've just--and I think that's true of even, like, Dylan.
If you listen to his records from album to album, he sounds different, you
know. I don't think--you know, my voice has been that radically different
from record to record, but I'd like to think that it's getting better in
subtle ways.

GROSS: One last thing before you go. I often ask songwriters when they're on
the show to take a song that they didn't write that they really love but that
they have to justify liking because other people think the song is really
square or corny; in other words, to redeem a song.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh.

GROSS: Is there a song like that that you could redeem for us?

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh, there must be. Let me think. Yeah, well, one song I've
always liked was Anne Murray's "Snowbird." You know that song?

GROSS: Yeah. Not well, though.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Well, that appeared as kind of like--it's a song that obviously
most people would snicker at, but it was such a huge hit and on my last tour
we used to come out for our encore and we'd do it, and it was a real feeling
of almost national pride. Everywhere you went people would just absolutely go
berserk, you know.

GROSS: She's Canadian.

Mr. SEXSMITH: She's Canadian, yeah. And I think that, you know, because
when you listen to the song, I think it's a very powerful song, a very sad
song, you know. So should I play a bit of that?

GROSS: Absolutely.

Mr. SEXSMITH: OK. Let's see.

(Soundbite of "Snow Bird")

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

(Singing) Beneath the snowy mantle cold and gray, the unborn grass lies
waiting for the snow to melt away. The snowbird sings the song he always
sings, and it speaks to me of flowers that will bloom again in spring. When I
was young, my heart was young then, too. Anything my heart would tell me,
that's the thing that I would do. But now I feel such emptiness within, for
the things that I want most in life are the things that I can't win. Spread
your tiny wings and fly away, and take the snow back with you where it came
from on that day. For my love forever is untrue, and if I could, you know
that I would fly away with you.

So, you know, that's one of those songs that's really a well-written song that
I think maybe it got overdone on radio, I guess.

GROSS: It sounded good, though.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Yeah.

GROSS: Thank you for doing that.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Thanks.

GROSS: And thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a
pleasure to have you here and to hear you play. Thank you.

Mr. SEXSMITH: Oh, thank you very much.

GROSS: Ron Sexsmith. He has a new CD called "Blue Boy."

Coming up, Dominik Moll, the writer and director of the French film "With A
Friend Like Harry." This is FRESH AIR.

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