David Briggs

DATE February 6, 2001 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: David Briggs, co-creator of "Who Wants To Be A
Millionaire?", discusses his show's success
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Two of the most successful TV programs in America originated in other
countries: "Survivor" and "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" Today we'll talk
with the creators of both shows. We'll start with "Who Wants To Be A
Millionaire?", which was first broadcast in England in 1998. Here's the
British host, Chris Tarrant.

(Soundbite of British version of "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?")

Mr. CHRIS TARRANT (Host): The next question is for 64,000 pounds. And you
might as well play it. Here it comes.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. TARRANT: Which country has a test cricket ground called Kensington Oval,
England, Australia, Jamaica, Barbados? You're five right answers away from a
million quid. Don't stop.

Unidentified Contestant: Now the thing is--now I know we've got an Oval over
here, but that's in Kennington(ph). So it can't be there. So I'll go B,
Australia.

Mr. TARRANT: It's your choice. Take your time.

Unidentified Contestant: Was it Jamaica? Is it Barbados? Kensington?
Jamaica. Jamaica. I ...(unintelligible) and all. Jamaica. C, Jamaica.
Yes, C, Jamaica. Jamaica.

Mr. TARRANT: Is that your final answer?

Unidentified Contestant: Yes. I bet it's Australia.

Mr. TARRANT: It's the wrong one.

(Soundbite of music and applause)

Unidentified Contestant: Oh, don't tell...

Mr. TARRANT: Oh, a failure.

GROSS: And in case you're wondering, the correct answer was Barbados.

The concept behind "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" was dreamed up by my
guest, David Briggs. He created the format along with three colleagues. The
show is broadcast on the ITV network in Britain. It's been licensed to about
80 countries and is currently on the air in 37 of them, including the US.

Briggs was born in Wales in 1949. He's worked as a journalist, a producer of
children's programs, music programs, current affairs and game shows. He also
produced a morning TV show hosted by Chris Tarrant, who became the host of the
Britain version of "Millionaire?" I asked Briggs about his original concept
for "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?"

Mr. DAVID BRIGGS (Co-creator, "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?"): The very
first thing that popped into my mind was the simple idea that putting people
under pressure, with a television camera right close to their face, would be
interesting. That was the very first thought. And then my second thought
was, `How much pressure can you put on somebody, and then how do you generate
that pressure?' And from those three basic thoughts, the beginnings of
"Millionaire?" came about, I think.

GROSS: And was the million dollars part of the whole pressure thing, like how
to put pressure on somebody is to offer them a million dollars if they say the
right stuff?

Mr. BRIGGS: A million wasn't necessarily important. A large sum of money was
important. It so happens that the million had never been done before, and it
became a convenient vehicle because, numerically, the numbers split quite
nicely. If you put 15 questions in, you go straight up to a million quite
nicely, with a little bit of mathematical adjustment. And so a million wasn't
crucial. What was crucial was to put people in a position where it was enough
money to make it very, very important.

GROSS: OK. Let's talk about the design of "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?"
Why a multiple-choice format?

Mr. BRIGGS: Ah, that was terribly important. I mean, two important new
things in a quiz show: one, a multiple choice; and, B, you show them the
question and the four answers before they've got to decide what they want to
do. That was in the very early plans there because that makes it much more
tempting. Then you get to see--the most important thing of this television
program is when that camera is right in those people's eyes, you can almost
see inside their souls when they have to make the decision. You can see their
eyes before the question comes up, their anticipation. They're about to see
the next question. It's going to take them another step forward. They're
going to see a question and four answers.

And when you watch their faces, you can see sometimes instant recognition.
The question comes up, they know the answer; don't even have to see the
answers offered to them. And sometimes the question comes up, and they are
blank, and you can see that complete crestfallen look come across their faces.
And that's what the show's all about. It's about complete emotion, real
emotion, on a television set with real people. They're not people that are
hand-picked because they look good or because they sound good. They are real
people making real decisions. It is a life drama in front of your eyes.

GROSS: Now they do have some options if they don't know what the answer is.
There's 50:50, in which two of the answers are eliminated and two are left
standing. They can poll the audience to see what the audience thinks. Or
they can use what, in America, is called a `lifeline' and what, in the United
Kingdom, is called `Call a friend.' You could have somebody standing by on
the telephone and ask them what they think the right answer is...

Mr. BRIGGS: Correct.

GROSS: ...and go with their judgment. How did you come up with those
options?

Mr. BRIGGS: Well, what we found is when I first came up with the show, the
idea was that you'd go from zero to a million quid, and each question would
unfold and you would just go all the way up. And what we had to do, after
we'd done some testing on this, we found that nobody was going to go all the
way. And so we needed to give them certain special lifelines to help them
make this journey.

The first thing we did was we put in two safe havens; one was a thousand
dollars, and the second one was at $32,000. That meant if you get that far,
that's safe, that money, which encouraged people to try and shoot for those
safe havens. And, secondly, what we did to try and help them get all the way
to the big prizes, what we wanted to do was give them some helping hands, some
lifelines. And those were the three that we felt were the best ones to help
them out. I mean, they're all very different. You use them in different
ways. They can be used very tactically, but we felt that they were the right
things to try and get people to win big money because, otherwise--the simple
truth to the show was that everybody was going to pull out at a certain point
when they couldn't go any further. They would just--the gambles were too
much. And so we had to make ways to give them the chance to win more money.

GROSS: Every country that licenses "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" also gets
the camera shots, the set and the music.

Mr. BRIGGS: Yes. When we licensed to any of the countries--we've now
licensed to over 80 worldwide--they get a bible, which is a very thick
document, which tells them everything they need to do to make the show the
success in their territory that it has been in others, and that includes set
design, lights, the computers. There's an enormous computer system that runs
behind the show that brings the questions up; that when you, you know, do
certain things in the show, it automatically drives some of the lights. Some
of the music cues are driven by the computer. So the whole computer system
you have to get as well; plus, the set design; you know, how the lights work.
And there are lots of little tips about how to make this a fab show in your
area, simple things, like how to treat the contestants.

We try and make it a special day out for everybody who comes to our studio.
Whether you take away nothing or you take away a million dollars or a million
pounds, you're having the best day of your life. And people are looked after
in a very special way, so they are in their dream world when they come to us.

GROSS: Now say I license it for my country, but I want to make some changes
in your bible. I don't want to treat the contestants nice, or I don't want to
use your camera shots; I've got better shots of my own, and I've got better
theme music, too. Can I do that?

Mr. BRIGGS: I think, Terry, we'll be talking to your competitor, if that was
your attitude.

GROSS: So I have to go with the bible if I licensed your show.

Mr. BRIGGS: You have to go with the bible. We've allowed, in certain
territories, some changes to be made simply because the way we originally
designed it is not applicable to that territory. But in most...

GROSS: Can you think of an example?

Mr. BRIGGS: We've changed the name of the show marginally in some countries,
although the logo has to remain the same. Unfortunately, you know, if you do
this show in Turkey, for example, you'd have to rename it to "Who Wants To Be
A Billionaire?" because a million Turkish lira is not worth very much. Italy
is exactly the same. So we've had to make subtle changes like that in some
countries, but, basically, throughout the world, wherever "Millionaire?" is
on, you should see--even if you don't understand the language, you should be
able to sit down and watch that program, for example, in India or in Japan and
say, `I know what's going on.'

All the music's the same. The logo will be the same. You'll know what the
program is. And I'll tell you, I've watched it in foreign languages, and you
can tell exactly what's going on. You can see exactly where the presenter is
because the money tree's the same in every country. So you know whereabouts
they are in the game, and you can see by their presenter's voice when he says,
`Is that your final answer?' In some foreign language, you know what he's
saying...

GROSS: Now...

Mr. BRIGGS: ...because you can tell by the contestant's face.

GROSS: ...is that part of the bible, too, that you're supposed to say, `Is
that your final answer?'

Mr. BRIGGS: It's suggested that some close derivative in your language should
be used. A lot of the bits of the language of the show, like `Is that your
final answer?' and `phone a friend' and 50:50 and things like that or we say
over here things like--Chris always says to people, like, `You've won 32,000
pounds, but we don't want to give you that. We want to give you more
money'--those things have gone into the language over here. And we do just
show people in other countries how Chris Tarrant, who's the English presenter,
does things. And most of the presenters worldwide seem to think that he's got
it pretty darn right, and so they pick up on a lot of those things.

GROSS: Are there any things that Regis Philbin says in the United States that
you enjoy that were originated for the American version of "Millionaire?"

Mr. BRIGGS: There are some differences. Regis has now edited our version,
which is, `Is that your final answer?' down to `Final,' which I suppose is a
sort of American short form. You all across the Atlantic there like to say
everything much, much quicker than us. We like to drag it out. And Chris can
make that `Is that your final answer?', you know, five words, last 15 seconds
if he wants to. And I like that sort of drama. But there in America, you
just have it as `Final?', which has also its own attraction.

One of the differences over here is that we have a--Chris Tarrant, who's the
English presenter, has a very close relationship with the contestants, which
doesn't sometimes come over with Regis so much. I mean, Regis does, but I
think Chris, for example, will go over when somebody's just made it to 32 or
64, whatever it is, and hug them, you know, be it man or woman. And Chris is
just all over them with excitement and joy. And I understand that Regis kind
of saw Chris doing this and said, `Hey, that looks really good. I'd like to
try that.' And the first time he did it, apparently the contestant didn't
take too kindly to it, and so he's had to back off doing it now, which I sort
of think says a lot about the American culture vs. ours probably.

GROSS: I wonder if the British host, Chris Tarrant, wears clothes that look
quite as expensive as Regis Philbin's do.

Mr. BRIGGS: Yes. The famous, what is now, I believe, known in America as the
Regis, look actually started with Chris Tarrant in this country, and that look
of the, you know, suit with the matching tie and shirt. It started over here,
and that is virtually part of the bible as well, I have to say.

GROSS: So people in India and Turkey, when they're hosting "Who Wants To Be
A Millionaire?", have to wear a tie the same color as their shirt?

Mr. BRIGGS: I think it's pretty much international, yes. We had a lovely
get-together of about 30 of the presenters down in the South of France last
year, sort of a big `thank you' party, and it was like this whole line of
people all dressed up exactly the same. It was very bizarre to see. So, yes,
I think, by and large, they do all wear the same things.

And I remember at that get-together I think it was the guy from Russia came up
to me, and through an interpreter, he said, `First of all, I want to thank you
for inventing this show because it's, you know, been great for me, and I've
had a wonderful time.' And he said to me something along the lines of, `Can
you tell me why Chris puts his hands together in front of him at the start of
the show? Is this some key to how we get big ratings?' And I said, `No.
Actually, it's to stop him putting his hands in his pockets.' And we actually
sew up the trouser pockets of Chris' trousers so he can't put his hands in his
pockets, and so he has to put them somewhere, so he puts them in front of him.

And several people have, you know, tried to notice things like that and
thought they were, you know, little tricks to get a bigger audience, but
they're not at all.

GROSS: You know what I'm wondering? You've talked about how the camera
should be really close to the contestant's face, and a lot of the show is
about the pressure that's on the contestant and the drama of watching them.
Are there cultures in which it would be considered impolite to put the camera
that close or impolite to create quite that much pressure in a public
situation?

Mr. BRIGGS: I don't think I've heard of any examples, Terry, where it's
considered impolite. We do have some national differences. For example, the
shows that go out in the Middle East, when a woman appears, she has to have
her face covered, as they do in Arab countries. But the one thing that has to
be exposed is the eyes, and it's the eyes that tell it all. I mean, if you
can have the camera look into their eyes, you can see pretty much down into
their soul. You don't need the rest of the face. The rest of the face is a
bonus.

But I don't think we've found anywhere where the show has been perceived to
be intrinsically insulting in any way to the culture of the society. I think
we've just found things where we've had to get around little sort of problems,
such as the Arab show, but it hasn't affected it at all. I mean, the show
that goes out in the Middle East is one of the biggest-rating shows in the
world.

GROSS: How did you first come up with your plan for auditioning contestants
for "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" What was that process initially like?

Mr. BRIGGS: Well, the great thing is, Terry, is that there's no audition.
This is the one show where--because of the way we run our entry system, which
is people make a phone call, they answer a question, then a computer picks a
hundred of the people who've answered the question correctly, then we go back,
we ask them a second question, and whoever's closest to the right answer gets
on the show. There is no audition. That's why you get everybody, all walks
of life, all sorts of people. There is no beauty contest to get on this show.
Anybody can get on, you know, be you a beggar or a king. Anybody can get on,
and that's why the audience identifies with them, because they say, `It could
be me there. It could be me sitting there.'

GROSS: You know, but there was criticism in the United States during the
first season that the contestants were overwhelmingly white and male.

Mr. BRIGGS: We've had some of that criticism here as well, and I can only say
I can't create the contestants. They have to create themselves. And if the
people who call in are, by and large, white and male, then that's what you're
going to end up with on the show. It's open to everybody. Everybody's got
the same chance. And whoever calls in and gets all the questions right, and
the computer picks them, which is a completely random computer--I want to make
this absolutely clear: There is no selective process at all--then we get what
we're given.

GROSS: Now since you don't audition the people beforehand, then you don't
know what they look like or how they sound, how their personal hygiene is,
have you ever been really surprised and kind of scared by some of the
contestants who have showed up?

Mr. BRIGGS: Oh, yes, indeed, Terry, I have. We have had all--I mean, people
from the very north of Scotland, for example, or indeed people from Northern
Ireland have very, very thick accents, which I personally and sometimes Chris
finds hard to understand, but we just have to live with that. We have had
people who have had personal hygiene problems, which we just have to live
with, you know. They just turn up.

What they do is they find out the day before they go on the air that they're
going to be on; I think in America, it's like two days. And then we fly them
into London, in our case, and we put them on the show, and we meet them for
the first time 12 hours bef--no, less than that, eight hours before we record
the show. And we have a chat with them. We try and clean them up a bit and
give them a bit of a brush-down and, you know, put their clothes on, make sure
they look nice and out they go. But, you know, it's their clothes, it's their
hairdos, it's everything. That's just them. We have had a few problems, but
nothing, you know...

GROSS: Tell me about some of the problems.

Mr. BRIGGS: Well, only tiny things. I mean, they're not worth talking about.
I mean, just, you know, people who, you know, you would rather not--Chris said
to me that he'd rather not, you know, hug them as viciously as he might after
a big win because they're not as pleasant to hug as other people; let's put it
that way. And people who--you know, we've had people in wheelchairs. We've
had people who are, you know, partially sighted, who have trouble, you know,
reading the fastest-finger-first screen, and so we've had to put Braille on
that and things like that. But they're all problems that you just eventually
overcome, and none of them are too much.

GROSS: Who designs the questions, and what does the bible say about how the
questions should be designed?

Mr. BRIGGS: OK. There is a sort of "Millionaire?" question. These will vary
from territory to territory. The one thing we can't do here in the UK is
write the questions, and that's simply because, you know, what to me is an
easy question in England is obviously going to be very different level of
difficulty in the United States. So we can't even write questions for the
same language, so we leave it to the individual territories. But we do
believe there is a good sort of "Millionaire?" question, which I always think,
especially when you get to the higher levels of money, should be--educationals
may be overstated here, but you should go, `Mm, I'm really interested to know
what the answer to that question is. I'm really interested to know the sort
of person who would know the answer.'

What we do in this country is we have a team of six or seven full-time
employees of the company, at Celador, whose job it is to write questions.
They just write questions. And they write fastest-finger-first questions, and
they write questions for all the different levels. And then myself and Paul
Smith, who's the chief executive of the company, we go away and hide in a
corner for a long time, and we then argue like mad about which questions
should go in which positions in the game. And that is a very subjective
judgment, you know. It's somebody's view as to what's an easy question and
what's a hard question. And we just hope we get it right more than we get it
wrong.

GROSS: Well, you know, I was watching--I got to see one episode of the
British version of "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?", and one of the questions
was, `Jason Silverheels played which character in a TV Western?' And I had no
idea whether the answer, which was Tonto, would be an easy one to come up with
in England since that was an American TV show. I didn't know whether this
would be arcana in England or something that everybody knew.

Mr. BRIGGS: That was kind of a bit of a hard question. That was a very long
time ago, that show, and I do remember it. But it was--I mean, certainly
everybody would know who Tonto was in "The Lone Ranger." Whether they'd know
about Jay Silverheels--that was, you know, a bit tough, I agree. And it was
for quite a lot of money if I remember, wasn't it?

GROSS: Yes, I think so. And yet one of the easy questions, one of the
like--well, actually this wasn't an easy one. This was a fastest-finger,
qualifying-round question.

Mr. BRIGGS: Yeah.

GROSS: It was like, `Put the parts of a horse in the order that they appear
anatomically.' And I didn't even recognize two of the words.

Mr. BRIGGS: Well, that's because you don't, you know, go out riding with the
queen, like we do over here.

GROSS: That's what I figured. That's what I figured.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with David Briggs, the
British producer who created the concept of "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire"
and co-created the format. The program first aired in England in 1998 and has
since been licensed to countries around the world.

What are the most controversial questions that you've had on the British
version of "Millionaire"?

Mr. BRIGGS: All right, I'm going to confess to you now, Terry. We did get a
question once where we got it wrong--we didn't get it wrong, but there were
two possible answers. And it was a question about tennis, and I can't
remember the detail of it. But it was about--what's the least number of
strokes you can win a set of tennis in I think was the question. And it
depended on whether you were serving or not serving, and we got it wrong. And
I can say the flood of calls was astronomical and awful. And since then we've
learned to check our questions very much more carefully. That was a very long
time ago. So what we do now, every question that's written has to have four
independent sources that verify that the question is correct, and also we have
to verify the three other answers are incorrect, which is also very, very
important. And so we do take great care over our questions now.

GROSS: What about the security of the answers to make sure that there's no
cheating?

Mr. BRIGGS: Ah, well, that's quite easy. What happens is very simple. We
write all the questions first, they all go into the computer. Currently on
"Millionaire," which is--we're on air at the moment in England--we're running
with about 3,250 questions in the computer across all--you know, all the
different levels in all subjects. Now of all those questions, on that
computer there are only two people who have access to that computer, for
number one. And secondly, the computer's being upgraded all the time. Even
if you could get into that computer, which is not linked, by the way, to any
Internet site at all. It's the only computer that I know that doesn't have
any links to the outside world. Even if you could get in there, even if you
knew all the passwords and did get in there, you'd then have to memorize three
and a half thousand questions and answers, which are changing all the time,
for secondly.

So the important bit is that when it comes to show time, what I do is I go in
at exactly 10 minutes before we start recording, and it's only then that I
build the stacks of questions. So I decide--you know, I--actually, I don't
build it at all; the computer does it for me. It just goes--you just press a
button, say `build a stack' and it builds questions from one to 15, and you
just look at it and check it. I always check it through to make sure there's
nothing in there that could be insensitive due to the news of the day, or
something like that. If that's OK, that's the stack and that's stack one for
the first contestant.

Now, you know, I don't know how you're going to ever find out what those 15
questions are, because you're already sitting in the seat downstairs ready to
go on. That's the sort of security we have, Terry. It's very tight.

GROSS: OK.

Mr. BRIGGS: Don't even think about trying to fix it.

GROSS: Do you have any kind of insurance policy, say with Lloyd's of London,
having to do with making sure you have enough prize money to give out, or
anything else like that?

Mr. BRIGGS: We used to. We started off with an insurance policy. We don't
bother with it anymore. I think in most territories, most television
companies find that this show is so successful that the advertising by itself
pays for any prize money that they need to give out.

And remember, you see, the first problem we had with "Millionaire" was
convincing somebody that, you know, we weren't going to be giving away a
million quid every night. And all they had to do was look at simple human
nature. If I said to you now, `Terry, you've got $250,000. OK? It's yours,
you can take it right now.' That's a quarter of a million dollars. That's
even a lot to a rich woman like you, Terry. Now that money is safe, OK? You
just got it there, it's safe. But here's a question. I tease it in front of
you and I ask you what your mother's middle name is, and you probably know.
You're absolutely convinced. But would you gamble? Would you just take that
chance?

And that's why this is not an expensive show, because at the end of the day,
it's human frailty. It's my lack of self-belief in what I know that makes you
say, `I'll just take the money, thank you.'

GROSS: Is that what you were counting on?

Mr. BRIGGS: Absolutely.

GROSS: How many people have actually won the full million in England?

Mr. BRIGGS: In England, just one.

GROSS: Just one?

Mr. BRIGGS: Just one. A lady called Judith Keppel won it just slightly
earlier this year, and she's the only one we've had--two people win half a
million--four people won half a million, but just one go all the way to the
million.

GROSS: What about in other countries?

Mr. BRIGGS: Oh, well, in America, we've got loads of them.

GROSS: So what's the difference? Why is that true?

Mr. BRIGGS: Well, a million dollars isn't as much as a million pounds, for a
start, is it, Terry? But there have been millionaire winners in France, in
Germany, in Japan, in Israel. I think that probably maybe the Americans are
braver. I think they've got--certainly they're much more imbued with the
culture of the game show and with the idea of playing for money, you know. I
mean, years ago there was "The $64,000 Question," all those sort of things.
And I think probably my proudest achievement in life is, after having come up
with "Millionaire," is to have sold a game show to America. I mean, you just
don't do that. We Brits are, you know, limey, not very good at this sort of
thing, and to have, you know, sold a show successfully to the American market
proves that maybe we're not so bad after all.

GROSS: I figure one of the reasons why so many people watch "Who Wants To Be
A Millionaire" is that you imagine yourself being the contestant on that show,

and then you imagine how much money you could have won if you were that
contestant.

Mr. BRIGGS: I think that's absolutely true. Most people who come into the
studio say to me, `It's so much easier at home,' you know. And everybody
plays along with it at home. It's got great shoutability, this game. The
reason that it works with the audience is that they are sitting there shouting
the answers out, and they are saying, `Oh, gosh, why can't this person
understand? I know this, why can't they?' Or they're sitting back in awe and
saying, `How did the person know that? I mean, I'm amazed.'

But everybody who comes along says, `Oh, you know, I reckon I can get to
32,000.' The trick is, Terry, when you're sitting in the chair and you're
faced with the decision, do you want to chance that money you've won? Do you
really know the answer to the next question? That's when it all becomes very,
very different.

GROSS: Well, David Briggs, thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. BRIGGS: It's a pleasure, Terry. Thank you very much for your time.

GROSS: David Briggs is the creator of "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire."
Coming up, the creator of "Survivor."

This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Television producer Charlie Parsons discusses the
success of "Survivor"
(Soundbite from "Expedition Robinson")

Unidentified Man: OK. (Foreign language spoken)

TERRY GROSS, host:

The show that we know as "Survivor" originated on Swedish TV as the program
"Expedition Robinson." It was dreamed up by the British producer Charlie
Parsons, but he couldn't interest a British TV network in buying the idea. So
he sold it to Swedish public broadcasting, and used their show as the pilot
for versions in other countries. Parsons went on to become the executive
producer of the American version, along with Mark Burnett. Parsons also
created the British late-night show "The Word," and was the executive producer
of the BBC's first gay magazine show. With Bob Geldof he co-founded the
British production company Planet 24. I asked Parsons how he came up with the
idea for "Survivor."

Mr. CHARLIE PARSONS (Executive Producer, "Survivor"): Well, "Survivor" has
been a long-running project. I guess over 12 years ago, for a program I did
in the UK, I sent four people to a desert island, just followed them through.
It was really a conventional documentary, I suppose you could say, although
taken in small parts. And it worked so well that the idea lingered with me,
and I thought this must be something I could turn into a real proper
entertainment show. A few years later, I developed it a bit more and then
after the success of a program I did over here, I was brought to America and I
developed it for Buena Vista television further. And that finally kind of
fine tuned all of the parts of the program, dotted the I's and crossed the
T's, so to speak. And the result was what we called then "Survive." That's
really the origin of the idea.

GROSS: Now the show is on in how many countries?

Mr. PARSONS: The show's on in about 20 countries around the world, and
there's about another 20 who are expressing an interest. In some places
it's--I say 20 countries. There are two countries who are clubbing
together--because of the sort of high budget of it, they need to club
together. But, you know, it's a growing and worldwide format and it's fair to
say that since the success of America, there's been even more interest than
there was before.

GROSS: Now does the show have a bible telling each country what they have to
do to produce the show?

Mr. PARSONS: Basically, the show has a very--there's a very strict format
description and then a very clear bible, which is basically constantly updated
based on the experiences of each producer. When we license it, which is what
we do, we basically license, produce it for a certain number of years. When
we license it, they're obliged to provide us with any information on
difficulties or experiences that they've had which could basically work
towards, if you like, the common good of making the program most successfully
and most enjoyably.

GROSS: What are some of the things you've gotten in response to that?

Mr. PARSONS: Well, I mean, at sort of the simplest level, on the first
series--when we filmed the first series--they filmed it in exactly the same
place as the first series of "Survivor" was filmed for the USA--they realized
pretty quickly that there was a big problem on the beach with sand flies.
These sand flies basically were causing great grief amongst the Swedish
contestants, and basically making them talk about almost nothing else, which
obviously wasn't great TV by itself. So we knew that when it actually came to
doing the next edition, either in that place or elsewhere, we wanted to make
sure that the area wasn't dominated by some species which was going to mean
that the people who (technical difficulties) couldn't talk about anything
else. That's an example. You know, collective information came back to us
and was actually things we needed to correct in order to make a better second
edition, if you see what I mean.

GROSS: What does the bible for "Survivor" say about how to cast contestants
for the show?

Mr. PARSONS: Well, what we wanted to do always, and indeed I think it says it
right in the very front page of the format document, was to cast contestants
from all walks of life. We really felt it strongly that they needed to
represent every aspect of society--rich or poor, young and old. We wanted to
make sure that it wasn't just a game about physical endurance, but also about
mental endurance. We wanted to make sure, also, that, you know, there were
all sorts of moral issues, if you like, looked at, because of the
representation. And that's the basic rule we wanted in the bible for casting
of the program.

GROSS: Now I'm wondering if the bible suggests that you should try to get
somebody who's a real pest or who's incredibly neurotic so that--somebody who
can be like the first person voted off the island, or the person that
everybody gangs up on.

Mr. PARSONS: Well, actually not, really. I mean, obviously we're looking for
characters and we're looking for scenarios. It doesn't say that in the bible.
It's a TV producer's instinct to look for the most interesting people, and the
most interesting people in a group like this are the ones who can create a
group dynamic or bounce off it. Certainly, character is such a big part of
the show. You know, all the games and all the activities that we devise were
designed to bring out characteristics. But I don't believe that it actually
says word for word, `We're looking for somebody's who neurotic.' I guess it's
implicit, though.

GROSS: Does the bible have anything to say about how attractive the
contestants should be, or how many of the contestants need to be attractive?

Mr. PARSONS: No, no, not at all. I mean, we're very keen that the
contestants should be from all walks of life. I mean, and--but we do--have
found that some countries prefer to have, you know--this is just
subjectively--seem to prefer to have more younger people than others.

GROSS: Now I think part of what's going on on "Survivor" is that you've got
these people on these, you know, hot desert islands and they're not wearing a
lot of clothes, so you see them go through this physical and emotional duress
while all wearing bathing suits. Did you think of that as part of the appeal?

Mr. PARSONS: Oh, undoubtedly. I would be lying if I didn't say--I mean, it's
everybody's dream to go onto a desert island and go native. I mean, if you
like, that's almost where the idea comes from in a strange way. You know,
here I am in Great Britain with gray skies. You know, nothing could be better
than the idea of going onto a desert island. And, you know, hence it's been a
sort of universal fantasy from literature to movies to television--from
"Robinson Crusoe" to "Gilligan's Island." So, of course, you know, that
idea of being free in an island environment, but also, you know, wandering
around without your clothes and not knowing what's going to happen you. I
mean, that all comes into it. You know, it's a fairy tale fantasy, if you
like.

GROSS: And of course for the viewers it's a way to watch often some very
attractive people not wearing a lot of clothes.

Mr. PARSONS: Well, yes. I mean, it is a way of watching that. But then, on
the other hand, so was "Beverly Hills 90210." You know, I don't think it's
that new in TV circles, I guess.

GROSS: I'm wondering if you're on in certain countries where the culture of
the country is much more modest than, say, the United States and they have to
clothe themselves more.

Mr. PARSONS: Well, I mean, I'd actually say--I mean, so far, fondly enough,
we're just in the process of negotiating with a Middle Eastern country, and
that, of course, raises a whole load of issues that haven't been raised
before, we haven't got to face them yet. But I mean, it raises, obviously,
the issue of sexes working together. It raises the issue of how much you can
and can't see. There's a whole load of things which will come out of it, I'm
sure. But so far I think it's fair to say that the countries we've actually
sold it to have tended to be Western countries, some of whom are more liberal
than the United States in what they can show on television.

GROSS: Has the Middle Eastern country in question, have the producers there
already expressed certain concerns to you, and if so...

Mr. PARSONS: Not at all. Not at all. They haven't mentioned that at all,
but I would be very surprised if that didn't come up. We just--basically,
they want to do the program. They love the program. I expect it will. Maybe
it won't. Maybe I'm completely wrong. It'll be quite interesting to see what
happens.

GROSS: What does the bible of "Survivor" about where the producers are
supposed to draw the line between what's televised and what's not? For
example, if two people were having sex, it would probably not be shown. If
somebody is relieving himself or herself, that would probably not be shown.
Where do you draw the line?

Mr. PARSONS: Well, that actually--the line being drawn for what people do is
actually not something which we can put in the production bible, not least
because different countries have entirely different standards. But what we do
say is that we believe the program to be a moral program, and we want the
program to be a quality program. We don't set out to be sensationalist. We
set out more to be almost a social experiment, and so that the line is drawn
very much at the discretion of the individual producers. But then in
selecting the people who might license the program from us, we make selections
based on the quality of their output before, and we don't want it to be in the
least bit damaging to the former internationalists.

GROSS: Could you ever imagine yourself being a contestant on "Survivor"? Is
this kind of thing that would suit your personality?

Mr. PARSONS: It absolutely would not suit my personality at all. I can't
see ...(unintelligible) contestant on "Survivor." One because I'm quite
private, and don't really want to sort of see myself being filmed all day.
And I certainly don't look good enough. And secondly, because, actually, I
quite like comforts, home comforts, and there aren't very many home comforts
if you you're sent to be by yourself for a long period of time.

GROSS: Now you said you don't think you look good enough to be a contestant
on "Survivor." I thought that didn't matter.

Mr. PARSONS: It doesn't matter, but I can--but just to be on TV is difficult
enough. It doesn't matter, but I'm conscious of it enough to do it. I think
that, you know, there's the sort of things you become conscious of. That's
why I wouldn't apply.

GROSS: The creator of "Survivor," you, and the creator of "Who Wants To Be A
Millionaire," David Briggs, are both British. Is England a particularly good
laboratory for game shows?

Mr. PARSONS: I think it's a very strange coincidence that we're both British,
but I think one of the reasons that kind of creativity in television comes out
of Britain is that until recently television was dominated very strongly by a
public service ethos where creativity wasn't measured immediately in audience
research, which is what tends to happen in other countries, but was measured
in enthusiasm for an idea. So you could get an idea on to television because
one visionary person thought, `This is really interesting or different,' and
didn't look at the audience research, which they'd already got to say, `Oh,
the audience doesn't like this, and they only respond to that.' So I guess
that that's probably the reason why the "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" and
"Survivor" come from the same country.

But having said that, obviously the real home for the game show, the real
birth place of the game show is America, and I think all we've probably
respectively done is put a spin on it and resold it back there.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. PARSONS: Pleasure. Really nice. Thank you very much.

GROSS: Charlie Parsons is the creator of "Survivor." By the way, the show
still isn't on in his own country, England.

Coming up, the Swedish producer who turned Parsons' concept into a hit show.
This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Producer Anna Brakenhielm discusses working on the
Swedish version of "Survivor"
TERRY GROSS, host:

When the British producer Charlie Parsons couldn't find a British TV network
willing to buy his idea for the show "Survivor," he sold it to Swedish public
broadcasting, where it was named "Expedition Robinson," and was first
broadcast in 1997. It became a big hit, and was used as the blueprint for the
American show "Survivor" and for other versions around the world. Anna
Brakenhielm is the Swedish producer behind "Expedition Robinson." During the
first season of "Expedition Robinson," the first person voted off the island
shortly after was hit by a train and killed in what was assumed to be a
suicide. This was before the show was broadcast. I asked Brakenhielm her
reaction to his death.

Ms. ANNA BRAKENHIELM (Producer, "Expedition Robinson"): I haven't found out
yet that he committed suicide, because the police haven't stated it was a
suicide, so I'm not the one who should tell. But it was a big shock for all
of us who was involved that he died a month after the production was ended,
because we liked him, all, and of course it was terrible.

GROSS: After the person died, or committed suicide, what did you do with the
footage of them? Did they remain in the series, or did you edit them out of
the series?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: The broadcaster decided to merge the two first episodes, so
it shouldn't be that much focus on that person, just to protect his family.
So the two first episodes were catted together in one episode. So that was
what we did. So we did some re-editing.

GROSS: I see. Did you add any kind of psychological counseling or
intermediary help, or whatever, for the people voted off the island so that
they wouldn't either be terribly embarrassed or self-conscious or whatever
they're going through afterwards?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: OK, we take very good care of them after they have been
voted off. You never send someone home alone, for example, and they are
allowed to stay at a hotel together with crew, or at another hotel together to
be by the contestants. Just stay for a couple of days so they don't go
directly back. And we also have psychiatrists talking to them afterwards.
And now it's easier because their show is so well known, and all the
contestants who compete, they know perfectly well what's going to happen.

So it was difficult the first season, because nobody had seen the show, and
nobody could be prepared for what was going to happen.

GROSS: What's one of the more tense moments that you experienced on the set
of "Survivor," when you thought something might so seriously wrong?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: Yeah, the third season we were recording in Philippines,
very far away from everything. The only way to get there was with small
planes that could take maximum eight people. And we had a typhoon that
started just 10 hours after we had sent out the teams on the islands. And it
was really, really difficult to evacuate the contestants. I mean, we had to
evacuate...

GROSS: Oh, you had a typhoon.

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: Yes. And we had to have them out of there and just stop the
production for six days, waiting for the typhoon to get over. So it was really
terrible. And we were recording for three countries at the same time on seven
different islands, so it was a huge organization, and we just stopped for six
days waiting for this typhoon to get away.

GROSS: Did you see the typhoon?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: Yeah, I was there. I was stuck on an island for two days,
couldn't get away. But nobody was injured or something like that. It was
just that they were freezing and cold and wet.

GROSS: How discouraging is that? I mean, did it dampen your enthusiasm for
the project, or did you just feel equally enthusiastic once the typhoon
stopped?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: It's more like if you have a responsibility as a CEO for a
company, and you are producing for millions and millions and millions, three
for broadcasts, three countries. You're a bit scared that the production will
be finished in time. It's more that. And as soon as you had all the
contestants back in safety and all the crew members back in safety, it was
just to sit down and calculate on budgets and see if it would be possible to
fulfill the production or not. That was my greatest concern at the time. And
so it's also organizational problems. When you have 150 crew members who are
not working for six days, it starts a lot of problems.

GROSS: Now where do the camera people sleep, and where do you sleep when
you're on the island? Do you sleep with the other contestants, or are you
someplace else?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: No, we never stay at the same island as the contestants,
because we want them to be totally alone, so we never do like they did in
America the first season, to have a resort on the same island as the
contestants. Because you don't get the feeling that they are alone. So we
arrive early in the morning by boat. It's just a cameraman and the reporters
and nobody else should talk to the contestants. You stay with them until you
have your material, and then you go back home, and they are totally alone.

GROSS: Who else is waiting in the wings in case they're needed?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: We have a head of security and we have--we are recording,
actually, three productions at the same time, so we have two doctors and two
nurses and then it's a lot of production people who are always around. I
mean, we also have guards, night guards, who patrol the island. They don't go
too close to the camp, but they are close with radio communication so they can
get rescued if something happens.

GROSS: How much does the winner get? What's the prize?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: Oh, in Sweden it's not that much. It's only 50,000 US
dollars.

GROSS: Wow. Because it's $1 million here.

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: (Technical difficulties) it's a big difference, but this is
a public broadcast and they can never get any advertising money or never any
sponsors. So even though it's the biggest national broadcaster, they don't
get any extra for having this success. So it's difficult to have such a huge
amount of money. If it was a commercial broadcast, of course the prize money
would be more.

GROSS: Now the ratings for "Survivor" have been quite extraordinary in the
United States. How have the ratings for "Expedition Robinson" been?

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: It's just amazing. The final episode ...(unintelligible)
we had, out of a population of 8.5 million, we had four million viewers. So
it was, yeah, almost 50 percent of the total population of the country were
watching the final episode now.

GROSS: Well, I thank you so much for talking with us.

Ms. BRAKENHIELM: Thank you.

GROSS: Anna Brakenhielm is the Swedish producer of "Expedition Robinson," the
blueprint for the show "Survivor."

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

We'll close with music by trombonist J.J. Johnson. He died Sunday at the age
of 77. His death was reported as a suicide. We'll feature an interview with
him from our archive later this week.

(Soundbite of trombone music)
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